Chuck Wagon Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Great stuff. I do understand the Cosell point of view where mechanics and process can scare people. But Mahomes has imperfect mechanics for a couple of reasons. The baseball background and the insane arm that allows him to not have to step into throws. I am a gambler so I go with Mahomes. Too many teams out there and if you hit a bullseye with him the franchise is changed. Corners, linebackers, and WR's can't do that like a QB can. People were also concerned with Aaron Rodgers mechanics. The guy has been around pro athletes his entire life, there's a ton of natural talent with him to work with, but he knows the work he needs to put in at the NFL level to succeed. It seems when talented QBs bust its due to 1) improper coaching / not enough talent around them (Couch, David Carr) or 2) they simply don't get "it" (Jamarcus, Leaf). Honestly with our team I'd be more concerned with the former on Mahomes than the later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 People were also concerned with Aaron Rodgers mechanics. The guy has been around pro athletes his entire life, there's a ton of natural talent with him to work with, but he knows the work he needs to put in at the NFL level to succeed. It seems when talented QBs bust its due to 1) improper coaching / not enough talent around them (Couch, David Carr) or 2) they simply don't get "it" (Jamarcus, Leaf). Honestly with our team I'd be more concerned with the former on Mahomes than the later. I was talking to my friend who is a scout about Cossell. He told me that Cossell's methods are good if you are looking for a QB sleeper later in the draft who can be a marginal starter. I also asked the scout who sold me on Mahomes what his low end was. He said early Jay Cutler with a better attitude. His high end comparable was Drew Brees. I'm in on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I was talking to my friend who is a scout about Cossell. He told me that Cossell's methods are good if you are looking for a QB sleeper later in the draft who can be a marginal starter. I also asked the scout who sold me on Mahomes what his low end was. He said early Jay Cutler with a better attitude. His high end comparable was Drew Brees. I'm in on that. You don't have to be attached to any one of the top qb prospects in this draft. There are a few very good prospects with different traits but all very good prospects. Trubinsky, Watson, Kizer and Webb and maybe a few more prospects. Probably none of the qbs in this draft will be ready to play right away. That's okay; that's the norm. The problem with the Bills is that they have a patchwork approach to building a roster. Whaley is a failed GM and this franchise is a failed franchise mostly because it has failed to secure the qb position. Whaley has demonstrated that he is willing to be bold as exemplified for his trade up deal for Watkins but he has not shown the same initiative with the qb position. That's why he is in jeopardy and lost some authority to the new HC. Contrary to what many people think here this is a year where the circumstances favor the Bills to resolve the generational qb void. This team can trade down, add some picks, and come away with a credible prospect. It won't. That's why the Bills will again continue their ignominious streak of not making the playoffs not only this year but also in the following years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 This thread has been something else. Reading some of the posts you'd assume Mahomes is a generational talent and is a lock to go #1. I see a huge project with upside but I haven't seen as many of his games as some here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billspro Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Somehow I missed this post--sorry about that I really don't have an issue with any of what you said. It's merely a case where I like the upside of his skill set enough to gamble on him. Let's face it--each of the top QBs in this class is a gamble, so if I miss, I want it to be on the guy with the greatest upside. I agree, it is always a gamble to take a QB in the first couple rounds. It is very rare to find a complete prospect. Qb is the toughest position to play and odds are most guys will bust. I am a believer in continuing to take chances on QBs though. Mahommes does show things on tape that indicate he could be a great player. He has a lot of wow throws and is a gamer. I usually focus on the negatives of a prospect before the draft and Mahommes obviously has some risks. If we drafted him I would still be excited because he could become great. I would feeler a lot better about him in the second round though, I just think he is too risky to take in round 1. Saying that I feel the Bills need to get one of the top 4 Qbs in this class. I personally hope it is Watson, I just think he has the it factor. Watson has negatives as well. Very average arm strength, deep ball accuracy is inconsistent, often runs before getting to second and third read, and turns the ball over to often. His positives are what I look for in a Qb though. He is clutch, has a quick release, good ball placement on short and intermediate throws, throws with anticipation, has the "it" factor, and is very athletic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 This thread has been something else. Reading some of the posts you'd assume Mahomes is a generational talent and is a lock to go #1. I see a huge project with upside but I haven't seen as many of his games as some here. Gotta expect this type of thing every year when the team is desperate for a franchise guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 This thread has been something else. Reading some of the posts you'd assume Mahomes is a generational talent and is a lock to go #1. I see a huge project with upside but I haven't seen as many of his games as some here. Not nearly as ridiculous as the amount of people here who feel the same way about a less talented prospect just because his last name is Kelly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I agree, it is always a gamble to take a QB in the first couple rounds. It is very rare to find a complete prospect. Qb is the toughest position to play and odds are most guys will bust. I am a believer in continuing to take chances on QBs though. Mahommes does show things on tape that indicate he could be a great player. He has a lot of wow throws and is a gamer. I usually focus on the negatives of a prospect before the draft and Mahommes obviously has some risks. If we drafted him I would still be excited because he could become great. I would feeler a lot better about him in the second round though, I just think he is too risky to take in round 1. Saying that I feel the Bills need to get one of the top 4 Qbs in this class. I personally hope it is Watson, I just think he has the it factor. Watson has negatives as well. Very average arm strength, deep ball accuracy is inconsistent, often runs before getting to second and third read, and turns the ball over to often. His positives are what I look for in a Qb though. He is clutch, has a quick release, good ball placement on short and intermediate throws, throws with anticipation, has the "it" factor, and is very athletic. Watson has great intangibles. When NFL teams meet him they will feel like they are talking to Dak from last year. I just don't see the upside with him. His arm talent is comparable to people that are #2 QB's. Saying you can make every throw is fine but if it floats in the air corners will break on it. In Buffalo that would be further magnified. He had a ridiculous supporting cast. Mike Williams, Renfrow, Leggett, and Artavis Scott will all be NFL players. I would take Artavis Scott in the 5th and be fine with that. Clemson coaches did a great job and he was the top QB in college but I don't take him in the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I can safely say i am so sick of hearing about this guy. I hope we don't draft him, and i hope he sucks. 60 page thread about a rookie we didn't even draft?! SMH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan4 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 If the Bills pass on Trubisky and the Browns take him at 12 then everyone's seat at One Bills Drive will get red hot if the Browns win similar games with a rookie while we win 5-6 games with Tyrod a veteran who will cost 18 million next year and who is what he is. I've seen this argument a number of times here. But how true is it? How often do NFL execs actually get fired for passing on a QB who seems to be almost universally viewed as more of a long term project type? If Trubisky turns out to be a true franchise changing type QB, then yeah I could see it being one factor in some people's long term job security. But it will be years before we know what Trubisky is for sure, and Whaley and others could be gone by then anyway. Who knows. But the argument could also be made form the other side - if they drafts Trubisky at #10 (who is a huge risk with only 13 games started) and he doesn't turn out to be a true franchise QB, then that almost definitely costs Whaley his job IMO. You can't swing and miss on two 1st round QBs and keep your job IMO. Especially if you blow a top 10 pick on a QB. I don't know, IMO it seems like a much bigger risk to job security to take a project QB at #10 then it does to pass on a project QB at #10. How many GMs have been fired for missing on a top 10 pick as opposed to passing on a project QB who turns out to be good? GMs pass on project QBs every draft and I can't remember any losing their jobs because of it. I'm not saying that they shouldn't draft Trubisky or anything like that. Just looking at the premise of the argument... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I've seen this argument a number of times here. But how true is it? How often do NFL execs actually get fired for passing on a QB who seems to be almost universally viewed as more of a long term project type? If Trubisky turns out to be a true franchise changing type QB, then yeah I could see it being one factor in some people's long term job security. But it will be years before we know what Trubisky is for sure, and Whaley and others could be gone by then anyway. Who knows. But the argument could also be made form the other side - if they drafts Trubisky at #10 (who is a huge risk with only 13 games started) and he doesn't turn out to be a true franchise QB, then that almost definitely costs Whaley his job IMO. You can't swing and miss on two 1st round QBs and keep your job IMO. Especially if you blow a top 10 pick on a QB. I don't know, IMO it seems like a much bigger risk to job security to take a project QB at #10 then it does to pass on a project QB at #10. How many GMs have been fired for missing on a top 10 pick as opposed to passing on a project QB who turns out to be good? GMs pass on project QBs every draft and I can't remember any losing their jobs because of it. I'm not saying that they shouldn't draft Trubisky or anything like that. Just looking at the premise of the argument... Trubisky and Mahomes are not long term projects. Bruce Arians said he likes the talent in this class and that some of these guys need to sit for one year. One year is not a long term project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan4 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Trubisky and Mahomes are not long term projects. Bruce Arians said he likes the talent in this class and that some of these guys need to sit for one year. One year is not a long term project. I ought most were saying Trubisky would need to sit for a couple years, no? Either way, none of these QBs are viewed as day 1 starters and all are being called projects. Maybe long term wasn't the right word. But I still think my argument holds up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) I ought most were saying Trubisky would need to sit for a couple years, no? Either way, none of these QBs are viewed as day 1 starters and all are being called projects. Maybe long term wasn't the right word. But I still think my argument holds up. No, that is not the consensus. Project in football implies massive uncertainty and time. Who cares whether they start right away or sit for 8 games to a year? You draft a QB to change the fate of your franchise, not to fill in holes on your depth chart. That is if you have a real GM running your team. Edited April 3, 2017 by jeffismagic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I can safely say i am so sick of hearing about this guy. I hope we don't draft him, and i hope he sucks. 60 page thread about a rookie we didn't even draft?! SMH No one is forcing you to read the thread. Strange reaction to wish ill on a fella that way. No, that is not the consensus. Project in football implies massive uncertainty and time. Who cares whether they start right away or sit for 8 games to a year? You draft a QB to change the fate of your franchise, not to fill in holes on your depth chart. That is if you have a real GM running your team. If DW passes on a franchise qb, all the fans who want to fill positional holes on D or WR now instead will be calling for his head later. Half of them will be telling you how they wanted Mahomes or Trubisky, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloFan68 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I want us to draft Mahomes but I expect us to draft Williams. If we could figure out how to get both of them, we would be all set to kick some serious butt. Let's Go Buffalo!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Trubisky and Mahomes are not long term projects. Of course they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Of course they are. I remember when NFL talking heads were saying that about Big Ben. The truth is these guys don't even know who can play, let alone how long it will take. That's a function of work ethic and flexibility from the offensive coordinator. The Bills currently run an offense where the QB is protected more than any team. Mahomes would be ready far earlier than people realize. His coach was installing plays from New England and Green Bay for him to run in college. Unless Dennison is idiot then I won't worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 No one is forcing you to read the thread. Strange reaction to wish ill on a fella that way. If DW passes on a franchise qb, all the fans who want to fill positional holes on D or WR now instead will be calling for his head later. Half of them will be telling you how they wanted Mahomes or Trubisky, etc. I like Mahomes... I'd even say go ahead and take him at 10 if you like him. But don't give the kid a hall of fame bust and act like there aren't reasons he's not the #1 overall pick. Cuz there are. Everyone says his arms so hot his footwork doesn't matter... and he'll learn to take snaps under center... and learn to call plays in the huddle.... All of these things matter, and thats why he's not going #1 overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Mahomes in steeler town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) I like Mahomes... I'd even say go ahead and take him at 10 if you like him. But don't give the kid a hall of fame bust and act like there aren't reasons he's not the #1 overall pick. Cuz there are. Everyone says his arms so hot his footwork doesn't matter... and he'll learn to take snaps under center... and learn to call plays in the huddle.... All of these things matter, and thats why he's not going #1 overall. I absolutely agree with this. I like Mahomes upside too but there are people here wanting to crown a kid who is by no means ready as a franchise saviour. He might be, but that is a big guess at this stage. EDIT: and I have been clear throughout that while he wouldn't be my choice of Quarterback at #10 I would not hang the Bills FO for taking him there. Edited April 3, 2017 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts