What is better, no guns, or more guns?

[Tiberius]

24 victims, JFC 

 

This is sad and pathetic 

[B-Man]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

 

6 dead, 24 wounded as it stands now.

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/shooting-reported-4th-july-parade-chicago-suburb-highland/story?id=86186529

 

 

We should wait and see what other information comes out before "using" it.

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

I'll be shocked if they don't find out who this guy was real soon. He left his gun, that's traceable. And I'm sure cameras captured him at some point in an urban area like that 

[Tiberius]

 

[BillStime]

🎯

 

 

[BillStime]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

OMG 

 

 

[Orlando Tim]

53 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

OMG 

 

 

Poor speaker but she clearly means she will shoot and kill anyone who threatened her grandkids lives. Would you shoot someone to protect your children?

[Big Blitz]

*media cheers*

 

 

Gun applicants in NY will have to hand over social accounts

 

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) - As missed warning signs pile up in investigations of mass killings, New York state is rolling out a novel strategy to screen applicants for gun permits. People seeking to carry concealed handguns will be required to hand over their social media accounts for a review of their "character and conduct."

 

https://apnews.com/article/technology-new-york-social-media-gun-politics-bd1fba804dfa2adb347c74bb6e52d2b0

 

 

 

 

We told you social credit scores were coming.  

 

 

 

Never vote Democrat.  Ever.  

[ComradeKayAdams]

APOLOGIES TO EVERYONE for briefly hijacking the gun thread! I’m replying to posts that I forgot to address weeks ago:

 

On 6/17/2022 at 5:50 PM, Buffalo Timmy said:

Your opening comment seems defensive and I am curious what they love about our country? They like to criticize the US because they are pathetically ignorant of how the rest of the world works and the implication of their policies if ever enacted. One thing I find appalling from them is all of the topics that really matter to them,not me, they have no idea about any of it. I will point out liberals and progressives are not the same thing in my description.

 

1. Progressives love this country because it’s their home. It’s no more complicated than that. Calling people “America haters” if they disagree with your political opinions is childish and unproductive. Having said that, I can answer your question on a personal level: I like our popular culture, the melting pot nature of our demographics, our spirit of innovation and creativity, the geography, our Bill of Rights, and our federal system of checks and balances.

 

2. Progressives are ignorant on how the rest of the world works?? Progressive policies aren’t already implemented elsewhere?? Universal health care? Federally mandated living wages? Universal pre-k? Progressive tax codes? Community-owned grocery stores? Swiss non-interventionism? German labor movement? French energy infrastructure? Housing for the homeless in Finland? Drug war strategies in Portugal? Legal prostitution in the Netherlands? Social democracies and mixed economies in practically every major industrialized country in the Western Hemisphere??!!

 

3. While you seem quite confident in your own grasp of political issues, I vaguely recall a conversation of ours in the global warming thread last summer. I backed you into a debate corner where you admitted that you believe in a vast global conspiracy, involving everyone from climate scientists to the U.S. Navy, in which all the climate data is fabricated. Is my recollection correct? How did you think that conversation went for you?? How about replying to my post on the inflation topic (thread: “How much did you pay for gas and groceries today?,” top of page 15, June 10)? Share with the forum what you know on perhaps the most pressing political topic in the news these days.

 

4. Good for you for acknowledging the distinction between liberals and progressives! Most Americans don’t.

 

On 6/18/2022 at 1:34 PM, Buffarukus said:

i think your confusing classical liberalism with corporate democrat cronyism. I'm not sure how MLK ( content of character ) or looking at roots of economic problems that would solve issues long term by addressing the entities involved but also require people to invest in self responsibility are simplistic or outdated in the 21st century? i sure hope not. at some point progressives are going to run out of people that are at fault for the problems in this world.

 

progressive solutions are the ones that sound simplistic to me. they do little to address the longterm damage that accumulates after the self gratification "virtue signaling" is over. you cant "tax the rich" without knowing how that doesnt become higher prices and effects the poor or plants just relocating taking jobs. you cant implement green deals with zero infrastructure and high cost again, crushing the poor. you cant give free college without deterioration of degrees obtained. you cant give free healthcare when most budgets are blown out and can barely pay basic medicare. open boarders! when people are struggling for food housing and work lets let millions more compete! a mexican born republican just won south texas county so a veiled racism on something like boarder security must be spreading to people that progressives are protecting..or maybe looking out for american citizens first and foremost is not what some make it out to be at all and the media has been gaslighting people on a variety of topics. 

 

now these are obviously quick observations but i don't think i am unfair on the basic generalization of what progressives are essentially saying. give a demand..well is it done yet!? worker rights,  better pay, equality, improving support programs that help people get on their feet are all things traditional liberals have always supported. progressives are just the extreme version that is more ideological then principle based 

 

when it comes to the laissez-faire capitalism of the right i agree as corporations are just as dangerous as any gov if left unchecked but i also see a major contradiction. the government is the most corrupt corporation in the world. so lets demand solutions that integrate it into MORE aspects of our lives? i will never understand where this complete trust in government was earned. you list many reasons and wars it should not be. you also neglect something very important with (post covid economy). progressives made this problem. they applauded gov lockdowns and authoritarianism under the idea "lives over economics" " stay home save a life" this cont looong after data was clear that (laissez-faire) showed no indication of higher death rates. the right, against immense political, cultural, media pressure did what was best to avoid economic destruction. all while progressives and dems activley supported the destruction of small buisnesses, firing of workers under false vax promises and contributed to inflation with calls to pay everyone to produce nothing. same with censorship of the facts about the pandemic. fighting against these things are liberal ideas. freedom of choice. free from gov oppression, adhering to free speech. 

 

so the lives progressives were so concerned about are left in financial ruin right now. the struggling people they claim to fight so hard for are the same ones most effected by these decisions now. now a shrug and "it was covid nothing could be done" as if their were no other choices that they were villianizing or info they were busy erasing. they are ignoring the role they were a big part in when it came to prolonging the damage. so future funding for new social programs or something like medicare for all...good luck! the fed is literally playing with complete economic collapse at this point....not that they care.  how is it progressives should be entrusted with ANY political power in the future after this is beyond me. there need to be consequences! like you said.

 

you need to take a objective look at the outcome of society that followed progressive ideology the last few years. here we are. mix that with the progressive reliance on violence (antifa) (pro life medical centers getting bombed) ( supreme justice attempted murder) (police, ice attacks) (public events that have people they don't agree with bomb threats and destruction over the years) (comedians can't even tell jokes) how can peaceful people even identify with it? but this is the future of the dnc?

 

i only asked your opinion, instead i am writing another novel to convince you. 😅 is my dangerous misinformation campaign warping your mind? lol. sorry. in summary i hope progressives such as yourself (you seem relatively moderate) realize liberalism has many of the same goals but without the all the nonsense. i think progressives, if staying on the current coarse and not expelling the radical portion quickly, will implode. its why the red wave is predicted and polls are in the trash for dems. dems stance on police, energy, identity politics, open boarders are all based on progressive ideas and all contributing to the current  disaster we have to dig out of. 

 

This is a lot of material here…I’ll tackle as much as I can before my bedtime!

 

1. Definitions: I’ve been careful to use “classical liberalism” as a synonym for modern libertarianism and for advocacy of strict Constitutional constructionism. I don’t think I’ve been conflating classical liberalism with crony capitalism? The over-the-top extreme wealth disparities and wealth suppression naturally generated by economic libertarianism, however, do tend to corrode democracies so that they devolve into corporate oligarchies like the one in which we’re currently living. Classical liberalism always seems to lead to great social instability. Never mind modern (i.e. post-Age of Enlightenment/Industrial Revolution era) European history; the most prominent demonstration of this in American history was the economic volatility and strife of the Gilded Age that fueled Debs and the original American progressive movement of the early 1900’s.

 

2. Trust in Government: Classical liberals tend to play this game where they insist that government is hopelessly inefficient and incompetent, and then they proceed to elect politicians who do everything in their power to undermine said government services, thereby reinforcing their original point. Government is a necessity for a few vital goods and services: things like national defense, law and order, and firefighting. Progressives would add aspects of health care, education, and housing along with various market failure safeguards for labor exploitation and pollution and monopoly/oligopoly effects. Socialists would add at least a few more services, if not many more. I would hope everyone wants to work to keep government as streamlined and efficacious as possible with the minimum necessary safeguards, but I also don’t want to throw babies out with their bathwaters. As you probably figured, I’m not a fan of debates on negative rights vs. positive rights because it’s a totally meaningless distinction to me.

 

3. Perceived Failures of Progressivism: I’ve noticed how many Americans tend to blame progressives for government failures that are actually neoliberal in nature, not progressive...namely the economic ones. Remember how I argued that progressives don’t have much political power in the United States? We couldn’t even get a completely watered-down Build Back Better Act passed! The Biden administration has been neoliberal to the core since day one. But while I think our ideas are super awesome for the most part, some admittedly need to go back to the drawing board and/or need work on the messaging. I’ve already conceded some of the law-and-order issues to you. I won’t concede border control and economic protectionism to you because true progressivism isn’t about open borders and globalism; it’s about humane treatment of illegal immigrants and pro-worker policies. I can partly concede the “Cancel Student Debt” movement that you raised because that solution is WAY too simplistic. It ends up being unfair to many Americans who already paid off their college debt or who didn’t go to college, and it doesn’t address the root problems behind exploding college costs. From the perspective of macroeconomic growth, however, Millenial/Gen Z post-secondary educational debt is a gigantic drag on our economy.

 

4. Contemporary Failures of Classical Liberalism: I could go on and on about its flaws when it comes to solving modern macroeconomic problems, everything from fiscal policy to monetary policy. But in the interest of my waning time before bed, I’ll limit my complaining to the big one that is government spending (or rather, lack thereof) in the face of recessions. Let’s take the looming post-COVID recession as a case example. We know during the pandemic that the professional/managerial class (PMC) got wealthier and the working class got poorer. These are objective economic facts, colloquially known as the “Kay-shaped” recovery. Nevertheless, those who identify as classical liberals still argue that the rich are paying too much in taxes right now and the American social safety net is way too generous. The silliest ones even advocate for a flat tax. All of them would rather cool off inflation by having the Fed raise interest rates before ever entertaining the notion of raising taxes on the PMC. But raising interest rates will hit the working class disproportionately hard in the form of unemployment. The U.S. has a 70% consumer spending-based economy, but the very sizable working class won’t have the money to jumpstart it. And we know from recent history (going back to Reagan) that these prospective post-COVID tax cuts for the rich will just be redirected right into company stock buybacks and dividends, not investments in DOMESTIC jobs.

 

5. Future of Progressivism: There’s an ongoing civil war within the progressive movement between the social justice warrior coterie and the economic populist one. I think American progressivism has a bright future as long as the economic populists lead the conversations. The movement is doing extremely well with the under-40 crowd (demography is destiny, as they say!), but admittedly has stalled with Latinos and the male working class since 2016. My people (social democrats and greenies, plus any socialists and commies) need to collaborate and consolidate power like the lefties did in France recently under Jean-Luc Melenchon. I can see a nice path being paved forward for progressives to take over the Democratic Party and the country by the end of this decade. The path pavers here would be the rank incompetency of the Biden administration, the Manchin/Sinema legislative blockade, the Roberts court’s illegitimacy in the public’s eyes (from Citizens United v. FEC back in 2010 all the way to the upcoming Moore v. Harper case), and the massive social catalyst that is the Dobbs reversal of Roe and Casey.

 

EDIT: Corrected a few obvious spelling/grammar errors.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Delete_Account

[Orlando Tim]

9 hours ago, Delete_Account said:

APOLOGIES TO EVERYONE for briefly hijacking the gun thread! I’m replying to posts that I forgot to address weeks ago:

 

 

1. Progressives love this country because it’s their home. It’s no more complicated than that. Calling people “America haters” if they disagree with your political opinions is childish and unproductive. Having said that, I can answer your question on a personal level: I like our popular culture, the melting pot nature of our demographics, our spirit of innovation and creativity, the geography, our Bill of Rights, and our federal system of checks and balances.

 

2. Progressives are ignorant on how the rest of the world works?? Progressive policies aren’t already implemented elsewhere?? Universal health care? Federally mandated living wages? Universal pre-k? Progressive tax codes? Community-owned grocery stores? Swiss non-interventionism? German labor movement? French energy infrastructure? Housing for the homeless in Finland? Drug war strategies in Portugal? Legal prostitution in the Netherlands? Social democracies and mixed economies in practically every major industrialized country in the Western Hemisphere??!!

 

3. While you seem quite confident in your own grasp of political issues, I vaguely recall a conversation of ours in the global warming thread last summer. I backed you into a debate corner where you admitted that you believe in a vast global conspiracy, involving everyone from climate scientists to the U.S. Navy, in which all the climate data is fabricated. Is my recollection correct? How did you think that conversation went for you?? How about replying to my post on the inflation topic (thread: “How much did you pay for gas and groceries today?,” top of page 15, June 10)? Share with the forum what you know on perhaps the most pressing political topic in the news these days.

 

4. Good for you for acknowledging the distinction between liberals and progressives! Most Americans don’t.

 

 

This is a lot of material here…I’ll tackle as much as I can before my bedtime!

 

1. Definitions: I’ve been careful to use “classical liberalism” as a synonym for modern libertarianism and for advocacy of strict Constitutional constructionism. I don’t think I’ve been conflating classical liberalism with crony capitalism? The over-the-top extreme wealth disparities and wealth suppression naturally generated by economic libertarianism, however, do tend to corrode democracies so that they devolve into corporate oligarchies like the one in which we’re currently living. Classical liberalism always seems to lead to great social instability. Never mind modern (i.e. post-Age of Enlightenment/Industrial Revolution era) European history; the most prominent demonstration of this in American history was the economic volatility and strife of the Gilded Age that fueled Debs and the original American progressive movement of the early 1900’s.

 

2. Trust in Government: Classical liberals tend to play this game where they insist that government is hopelessly inefficient and incompetent, and then they proceed to elect politicians who do everything in their power to undermine said government services, thereby reinforcing their original point. Government is a necessity for a few vital goods and services: things like national defense, law and order, and firefighting. Progressives would add aspects of health care, education, and housing along with various market failure safeguards for labor exploitation and pollution and monopoly/oligopoly effects. Socialists would add at least a few more services, if not many more. I would hope everyone wants to work to keep government as streamlined and efficacious as possible with the minimum necessary safeguards, but I also don’t want to throw babies out with their bathwaters. As you probably figured, I’m not a fan of debates on negative rights vs. positive rights because it’s a totally meaningless distinction to me.

 

3. Perceived Failures of Progressivism: I’ve noticed how many Americans tend to blame progressives for government failures that are actually neoliberal in nature, not progressive...namely the economic ones. Remember how I argued that progressives don’t have much political power in the United States? We couldn’t even get a completely watered-down Build Back Better Act passed! The Biden administration has been neoliberal to the core since day one. But while I think our ideas are super awesome for the most part, some admittedly need to go back to the drawing board and/or need work on the messaging. I’ve already conceded some of the law-and-order issues to you. I won’t concede border control and economic protectionism to you because true progressivism isn’t about open borders and globalism; it’s about humane treatment of illegal immigrants and pro-worker policies. I can partly concede the “Cancel Student Debt” movement that you raised because that solution is WAY too simplistic. It ends up being unfair to many Americans who already paid off their college debt or who didn’t go to college, and it doesn’t address the root problems behind exploding college costs. From the perspective of macroeconomic growth, however, Millenial/Gen Z post-secondary educational debt is a gigantic drag on our economy.

 

4. Contemporary Failures of Classical Liberalism: I could go on and on about its flaws when it comes to solving modern macroeconomic problems, everything from fiscal policy to monetary policy. But in the interest of my waning time before bed, I’ll limit my complaining to the big one that is government spending (or rather, lack thereof) in the face of recessions. Let’s take the looming post-COVID recession as a case example. We know during the pandemic that the professional/managerial class (PMC) got wealthier and the working class got poorer. These are objective economic facts, colloquially known as the “Kay-shaped” recovery. Nevertheless, those who identify as classical liberals still argue that the rich are paying too much in taxes right now and the American social safety net is way too generous. The silliest ones even advocate for a flat tax. All of them would rather cool off inflation by having the Fed raise interest rates before ever entertaining the notion of raising taxes on the PMC. But raising interest rates will hit the working class disproportionately hard in the form of unemployment. The U.S. has a 70% consumer spending-based economy, but the very sizable working class won’t have the money to jumpstart it. And we know from recent history (going back to Reagan) that these prospective post-COVID tax cuts for the rich will just be redirected right into company stock buybacks and dividends, not investments in DOMESTIC jobs.

 

5. Future of Progressivism: There’s an ongoing civil war within the progressive movement between the social justice warrior coterie and the economic populist one. I think American progressivism has a bright future as long as the economic populists lead the conversations. The movement is doing extremely well with the under-40 crowd (demography is destiny, as they say!), but admittedly has stalled with Latinos and the male working class since 2016. My people (social democrats and greenies, plus any socialists and commies) need to collaborate and consolidate power like the lefties did in France recently under Jean-Luc Melenchon. I can see a nice path being paved forward for progressives to take over the Democratic Party and the country by the end of this decade. The path pavers here would be the rank incompetency of the Biden administration, the Manchin/Sinema legislative blockade, the Roberts court’s illegitimacy in the public’s eyes (from Citizens United v. FEC back in 2010 all the way to the upcoming Moore v. Harper case), and the massive social catalyst that is the Dobbs reversal of Roe and Casey.

 

EDIT: Corrected a few obvious spelling/grammar errors.

Nothing like calling climategate a conspiracy theory when all that was admitted was the destruction of all of the raw data from the 1980's to 2008 that disputed a pre determined outcome. That is the opposite of science but I am a "conspiracy theorist". Second the Navy part is based on the fact that the equipment to measure the ocean properly has not existed that long, so any long range data is based on guesses not on actual measurements, so a guess will always have an inherent bias. To apply 20 years of data to prove a point of 1000's of years is idiotic. Lastly if  believing that funding people like John Kerry and Bill Gates will actually improve anything is required to be on your side then I am glad to be against you 

[BillStime]

“Pro Life” crowd strikes again - idiots

 

 

[LeviF]

[BillStime]

7 minutes ago, LeviF said:

👆🤡

 

The definition of hypocrisy 

[LeviF]

Just now, BillStime said:

👆🤡

 

The definition of hypocrisy 

 

Don't care lol

 

I can't wait until all these gun laws are killed by the courts. I'm exempt from pretty much all the ones in my state anyway but I just don't get tired of winning.

[BillStime]

1 minute ago, LeviF said:

 

Don't care lol

 

I can't wait until all these gun laws are killed by the courts. I'm exempt from pretty much all the ones in my state anyway but I just don't get tired of winning.

 

You're winning alright... Karma is gonna suck too.  Enjoy the win.

 

[Brandon]

2 hours ago, BillStime said:

“Pro Life” crowd strikes again - idiots

 

 

 

I'd assume there's some provision in there that's politically problematic for the opposition party.  You give the bill a name that everyone should support,  then hide a provision in there that you know the other side can't vote for.  And then you scream from the rooftops that the opponents are the incarnation of evil for voting down your bill,  when you were forcing them to eat a **** sandwich if they did.  That's usually how this little game works, especially a few months before a midterm. Skimming over the bill,  I don't see it, but its probably there.  Given that,  I'd have to hear the reasoning of some who voted against before passing judgement. 

[BillStime]

🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯

 

 

 

 

[BillStime]